Well Said Margie!  We certainly agree... Erin and I love all styles of dance (especially all styles of swing!) , and we have always thought that dancing was a wonderful way of bringing people of all sorts 'together' in a happy, united way.  We teach many styles of swing (and always have!), and enjoy them all!  We definitely hope that that 'happy' dance community that we've helped to build in our 16 years of business----stays united and happy.   Anyway, we agreed whole-heartedly with your words.!   Sincerely, Tami
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From: "Rusty E. Frank" <swingshift@earthlink.net

I really agree with you on this one.  And especially that it comes from both sides -- Hollywood and Savoy!!

Here are some things I might recommend for your piece:

1.  Relate it to racial prejudice
2.  That good follow lead skills are good follow lead skills
3.  That the beautiful thing about this swing dancing is the individual styling -- so really everything should have a personal feel -- therefore NOTHING is "right," rather EVERYTHING is right.

I would also suggest that we challenge people to hold their tongues.  Not talk badly about other styles and other people, just enjoy what they do and enjoy all good dancing.  Because as we all know --GOOD DANCING IS GOOD DANCING.

There's my two cents.

Rusty
========================
From: "Hilary Alexander" < Hilary_Alexander@paramount.com

Over the past six months or so, I've felt a level of controversy developing which I've never seen before in my three years of dancing. I think a lot of it has to do with the popularity of the internet, a new crop of dancers coming in who are very young, and the divergence in the "Savoy" and "Hollywood Style" styles.

 As much as I really embrace and enjoy this "Hollywood Style", I still, even after putting on a camp for this style, maintain that it's all the same thing.  After all, lest we forget, I learned everything I know at PBDA! People tend to think "Hollywood Style" evolved from "Savoy Style" or that Hollywood Style even existed in the '40's. Hollywood Style is a blanket term Erik and Sylvia made up to encompass a certain "smooth" and fast lindy with a whip to it that is based loosely on Dean Collins' style and that of other dancers of his era. They could probably give a way better definition than this.  But I agree with Peter that really the only differences are between people who want to dance as authentically as possible and those who want to update lindy and make it more contemporary.  There's room for it all, folks - it makes life more interesting.

[Editor's note: Try not to read a value judgement into the word authentic there --- what she's refering to are people who are attempting to historically recreate the dancing that others did in the ë30s and ë40s, as opposed to those of us who'd really rather express our own style as we dance (I don't think of it as "updating" Lindy myself, as I don't think any dance is static.  Dances grow and change because of the individuals doing them, and for me, that's part of what makes dancing so much fun) -- neither one is the "right" way to do things and I don't think there's any problem in all of us finding a way to allow others to "do their own thing".]

However, when it gets down to social etiquette, I don't think anyone would disagree that to leave a dance floor after a couple of swingouts using the excuse that "I don't do that style" is a really rude thing to do.  These people obviously don't know basic dance etiquette and I don't know that there's a whole lot we can do about that.  However, being a follow who dances with a lot of different people, I can imagine the following scenario - a girl almost entirely schooled in Hollywood Style is taken out on the floor by a guy schooled almost entirely in the Pasadena tradition; girl feels uncomfortable and unable to follow him so she uses the excuse of "I don't do that style" to get off the floor.  I think a lot of people new to dancing feel insecure and incapable of trying new things, especially out in front of people.  I know I did.  It's hard sometimes to just relax and try to move differently than you're accustomed to.  Still, the polite thing to do would be finish the dance, thank the person, and move on. This is just common sense.

And I'm sure there is the perception out there among new dancers that they like what they do and don't want to examine a different style, period.  That's their perogative.  Most people will not have this global unity concept - they are comfortable doing what they do and dancing with people they know. [Editor's note: and I would agree we all tend towards what is most familiar and comfortable to us, however, this doesn't justify rude behavior EVER.]

The biggest difference to me between the two styles is the arm tension.  As far as my experience, there is no such thing as a "light lead" in Hollywood Style - or if there is, it's still harder than a hard lead in Savoy Style! When I dance with a new person I always assume they will be lighter than I'm used to and adjust accordingly. You don't want to lean back only to fall if the guy isn't used to that.  It's happened!  To be honest, good arm tension always feels better to me - I don't feel that I can swivel properly when I have to lean forward.  I have always done this, even when I first started out. I also have never felt terribly comfortable doing modern, jazz-like movements.  I have never been good at that kind of dancing.  I admire people who are.  So as much as dancing with a person who leads in this manner may be interesting for the moment and challenging, I feel relieved to return to what is familiar and comfortable after the dance is over.  I think most people would agree with me on this one.

 I've noticed there are a few brave people out there who regularly attend clubs and dance almost entirely with people they don't know and are always trying new things.  I think this is great and brings a nice spirit to the room.  But being a naturally shy person I can imagine why most people don't do this.  And why, at this point in the game, certain factions have evolved which through the glory of the internet, have a tendency to get a little mean at times.

 Well, now that I've written this epic, I guess I should just summarize by saying what your forums have said all along - BE POLITE!!!  It does bother me that people from other states would get a bad impression of LA dancers. I'm very proud of the fantastic level of dancing we have here in California and I would hate for people to go home and tell everyone we're all snobs. And since I'd like to continue to put on Camp Hollywood every year, I'd hate for the "style" to get a bad global impression as well.  Like it or not, no matter what clothes we wear or style we do or clubs we go to, we all do this because we just plain love to dance.  In the end I think this should be the most important thing.
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From: <isabel3@earthlink.net Denise Paulino

Your comment on lindy discrimination hit the spot. Personally as far as I'm concerned whenever Steve & I teach a class or dance with another person, we try to emphasize whether it is E.C., W.C. or Savoy, it is Lindy just the same. And I agree that a person is rude when they take someone on the floor, and only dance a few counts, and say they can only dance certain style; leaving the other person standing on the floor. When a person agrees to dance with another, whether is Hollywood/Savoy style, they should have the courtesy of finishing the dance with that person. If they don't want to dance with the person again, be polite about it and decline. And anyways a person who calls herself/himself a "good dancer" should be able to follow or lead anybody. I want you to know that you and I are on the same plane. Than you for bringing it to our attention.

Denise
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SOLIDSNDR@aol.com (Sylvia Skylar)

I think that it goes without saying that anyone that would behave that way on the dance floor is nothing short of completely inconsiderate.  I am curious if it was a woman responding to a man or a man responding to  a woman. I am inclined to believe that this situation probably consisted of a woman acting rudely to a man, because I cannot imagine a man asking to dance with a woman and not having some idea what he was getting himself into. In response to any woman who would have the nerve to tell a man that she doesn't dance one style or another, my answer is that she is not a good follow.  There is no such thing as a Hollywood style follow or a Savoy style follow. There is Hollywood styling or Savoy styling and I assume that these differences are obvious to all of us. But, if you are a good (or even decent) follow you should have the capability to dance with any style leader.  [Editor's note: And if you are a good leader, you should have the capability of dancing with any style follower!]  Now, we are all aware that there are some leaders [and followers] out there that could improve their leading [following] skills and technique but I want to remind everyone that every dance is a learning experience and we can all teach each other.  Whether it is Hollywood, Savoy, advanced, or beginner. Quite frankly I think that that I have learned more from dancing with bad leads than I have with goods leads.

Now, I know that there are quite a few uneducated souls in the Los Angeles swing scene who claim that they dance Hollywood Style, and there misinterpretation of our style is an overly aggressive lead arm and violent movements and a follow who is heavy and presumptuous. If an out-of-towner had the unfortunate experience of one of these dances being their first Hollywood style exposure I could understand their displeasure. I want to make it very clear that all partnered dancing should feel calm and smooth never rough or rushed.  There is no leaning in Hollywood style, there is no pulling or pushing (despite what these people think and do). As a person who has danced all across the country and abroad I can say that every dancer of every style is different.  Erik has a very clear and direct lead, but in my opinion he is a very light lead.  Ryan Francois is a savoy style dancer (even though he doesn't claim it) [Editor's note: I'm guessing he doesn't claim it because he feels like Frankie that it's all really the same dance, just with individual style choices] and his lead is very direct and actually feels very much like a good Hollywood style lead. It all boils down to good leading and following.

Now, I cannot and will not make excuses for rude Hollywood style dancers [or rude Savoy style dancers]. Those of us who know what we are doing are embarrassed by these impostors. But, I also want to make it clear that there are jerks in every scene everywhere. So please do not pass judgment on an entire style of dance based on the inappropriate  actions of a few.

Sincerely,
Sylvia Skylar
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From: Melinda Lee < mleeqtpi@earthlink.net

Yea!!! BRAVA!  I totally  agree!

-M
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From: Gregsul@aol.com

Liked your etiquette comments! It is a scene out there and its always the most and best when it is personal, friendly and one to one with those around you.
=========================
From: "alysa vanderzanden" < alysatravels@hotmail.com

Hi Everyone,

Iíve gotten Margieís newletter for a while now, but this is the first time Iíve written anything to the forum.  I started swinging in San Francisco, now live in San Diego, and am about to move to LA.  I have visited LA a few times to dance, and I just wanted to say that I have never found dancers to be rude.  Quite to the contrary, I expected the LA scene to be a bit snobbish, but after overcoming my intial shyness and asking people to dance, both men and women were very friendly and easygoing.  Unfortunately, I have encountered rude types in other cities, mostly people who are used to dancing with people they know and donít want to bother dancing with a stranger.  I love dancing with people I donít know because I enjoy the magic that develops between two people on that first dance that canít ever be experienced again.  I thank your forum for addressing dance etiquette often, and look forward to meeting more of you around LA!

Alysa Vanderzanden
alysatravels@hotmail.com

Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.  Explore. Dream. Discover.   - Mark Twain
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From: Torquemada < dang@ucsd.edu

Alright swingkats and swingkittens, here's my 24 cents about the whole swing scene. I know there are some people in the swing scene that have already taken ballet, tap, jazz, and ballroom (waltz, cha-cha, tango, fox trot, and so on and on).  I agree that swing is swing, but we should come to a reality that there are styles out there. It's just like in tango, there's American Tango and Argentine Tango.  Both dances are named Tango, but there is a difference, same thing with lindy hop.  I've done the research and no one seems to agreee on how the dance got it's name. Someone mentioned in Swivel Magazine about Fred Kelly  mentioning how the dance got it's name,  and I asked Frankie Manning personally at the recent Harvest Moon Festival the same story, and he had a different answer.  So I disagree with the people out there that say "there are no styles."  Of course there are,  we're only getting some actual dance instructions from individuals who have researched how Dean Collins danced or how Frankie Manning, himself dances.

[Editor's Note: At no point did I intend to imply that there are no "styles" in Lindy Hop/Swing.  My point is that no matter what style you prefer, it's not a cool thing to put down people on the dance floor who dance differently than you.]

I've been to the U.S. Swing Open, where more people dance West Coast Swing  (style), this event was suppose to be "swing" right, nah I hardly saw anyone who danced East Coast Swing (style).  Now is this US event suppose to cater to one style only? hmmmm.  Now in the shag division, and knowing only St. Louis Shag and Collegiate Shag, my eyes were open to a whole different style Carolina Shag.  But again the shag division only enveloped people from where, you guessed it, North and South Carolina. What happened to St. Louis and Collegiate, aren't they Shag also? or is it a different dance? hmmmmmm.  Shouldn't shag, just be shag, as lindy should be lindy?

I must have to agree with Sylvia Skylar, that there are a lot of people trying to swing, but have bad habits in leading and following.  Learning how to dance, one must learn how to dance correctly, work on the basic steps before learning this move and that move.  It's just like learning how to waltz, the easiest basic on the planet (IMO). 1-2-3,1-2-3. :-)   How does one get better at anything, whether in sports, music, dance, or studying: practice, practice, practice.  The instructors out there are great at the dances they teach, because they dance everyday and to what?  the basics.  So no matter what style there is out there, just make sure you dance it properly and correctly.  I just recently found myself a little jerky on my lead dancing "Dean Collins Style". And what did I do to correct myself,  kept doing my basics.

And now a little about the etiquette, it would be great if everybody out there can dance a lot of "styles."  But let's face the reality, only a handful of people have the time to learn everything at once.  It amazes me when a latin number comes up and the lady I've asked to dance knows how to Cha-Cha or if it's rather bluesy, knows how to "West Coast".  Hey it's great.  I agree that a good dancer is a person who knows how to lead or to follow well.  I've seen people out there dancing the Cha-Cha at the wrong step, but that's where the proper training should have come into play.   Same thing with doing swing.  A lot of people want to jump from beginning to intermediate to advance to performing in a matter of days without the practice, it's like trying to get from First Grade to Graduate School without studying.  Of course there are a few among us that are so gifted that they can do such a leap, but what happens to them, they don't get the chance to have fun and meet people.  In a way they turn out to be gods among the lowly people.

[Editor's Note: I completely agree... Everyone should do the dance they're most comfortable with, but bring a degree of class and politeness to the dance floor.  There's a BIG difference between saying "I don't do Hollywood/Savoy" with a tone of contempt in your voice that implies that anyone who does has something wrong with them and responding to a request to dance by saying, "I really only have learned how to lead/follow Savoy/Hollywood" in a gracious manner that doesn't imply that there's anything wrong with knowing a different style of dance...]

But then I digress, sorry.  So dance the dance that makes you feel comfortable and always watch the way other people dance.  So if you don't like the way they dance, then turn them down nicely before the dance, and not in the middle.

Cheers, Dan
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From: "Michael E. Greenfield" < greensleaves@earthlink.net

You go girl!
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From: Modanz@aol.com

Hi Margie, Thanks for this special forum to add our 3-5 cents.  I'll make it short and sweet.  It saddens me to hear of such behavior on the dance floor.  We must all be very humble and remember that much was done before we learned our first Lindy Circle ... For those of you that know me and follows that have danced with me, "I love to dance!" And for those 3-5 minutes, I am going to enjoy her company, learn from her, and always say thank-you when I am done and chances are, try it again later!  MO:):( of Orange County
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From: tomwilbursplace@webtv.net (thomas wilbur)

As an out of towner from Seattle who has been to LA twice in the last 6 months for 4-10 days at a stretch and danced mostly the Derby, some Disneyland  and the Rhino Room. I have found that most people are pretty accepting and those that have a problem with style I fiqure that is their loss. Inflexibility and rigidty in any form is suffocating. My hat is off to those who observe common ediquette by following the Golden Rule. Treat others as you want to be treated. All others get a life!      Tom Wilbur Seattle
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From: Shannon Michaels < shanmichaels@earthlink.net

I've only been doing lindy for a year, but I wanted to for two and a half. I did swing first and I'll never forget how great I felt after my first couple classes. I was so exhilarated and hopeful. I called up a friend and the first thing she did was asked where I took my lesson and dump all over it, because it's Savoy style. "Nobody does that style,  except a bunch of old farts at the Passadena ballroom." My feelings were so hurt. It's normally pretty hard to get to me, but I've wanted to do Lindy for so long and the prospect that no one could dance with me really upset me. Moral of the story, I don't know all the different styles, but you better believe I will learn every one before I hang up my dancing shoes. How else can you be really great. To be honest I don't know all the styles, I just go out there and try to keep up, I'm not good enough to pass judgements on anyone else's dancing. I don't really think anyone is. Shannon Michaels
==============================
heidi richman hmrswings@earthlink.net wrote:

On the subject of dancing and etiquette: Please remember when you go out dancing to a LIVE BAND they are performing their hearts out for you!  Many, many bands from all around the country get very demoralized playing at shows where the dancers never clap or show their appreciation, or even worse, plunk their butts on the stage while the band is playing, with their backs to band so they can watch a dance jam.  What's wonderful about this scene is the synergy between bands and dancers. If you don't want your favorite bands to stop playing dance-oriented shows as they have more and more options open to them in the mainstream, then You need to show them the respect they deserve!!!

Heidi
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From: CLynne7557@aol.com

Dear Margie
Thank you for your important and sensible message on the Forum.  I think the key issue here is one of tolerance.  To me, the wonderful and unique thing about Lindy and the Swing Scene is that all types of people - all races, ages,  body types, styles, personalities, colors and creeds - are acceptable.  So when people start saying you should dress a certain way or dance a certain way it brings an exclusivity to the scene that corrupts its very essence.  Let's all just dance and have fun doing what we like to do!  That's my two cents.
Carmen
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From: "HERNANDEZ_PAM"< hernandez_pam@rancho.cc.ca.us

     Margie:

     I don't believe that I've had the pleasure of meeting you, not that it matters, but, if you knew me, the following may make more sense.  My daughter is one of the youngest to the "scene", so I have spent a great deal of time observing.

     My initial reaction to your "post" was somewhat negative. I understand what you are trying to do, but as a parent, and as someone who is  older, I think you are "preaching to the choir." Generally those who need the "advice", NEVER see themselves.  My suggestion?  If you witness this behavior, confront the person, but, be prepared unsolicited advice, is usually met with negativity.

     I have learned (and re-learned!) that it's NOT my place, nor anyone else's, to dictate how people "should" act.  Even when I think I'm being tactful or even helpful in a "constructive" way, my "advice" has never been received as it was intended.

     I agree with Hilary, most of the worst offenders, are the young, immature, "new to the scene" dancers.  And yet, I have heard tell - nd witnessed - some of the "old-timers" be just as rude and udgemental. (By "old-timers" I don't mean those who are chronologically old!)  It seems to be human nature that in order to make ourselves feel better we have to make others feel worse. You will  find these types of people everywhere (Little League, Bobby Sox, PTA, etc. are rampant with this affliction!)

     I'm sorry that you chose to equate this to racial prejudice. I'm disappointed that you chose that tact.  I guess it could be equated, but I hate to see that be the "root" and/or "solution" to all problems. Until we begin to see ourselves as one, we will never be.

     And as for how "others" see us?  Who cares? If they choose to use that as an "excuse" to stay away, and/or criticize LA dancers, fine because then that's just what it is, an excuse. (After all haven't we always been considered the "land of fruit and nuts?")  I have lived here my  whole life, I choose rather to wear my locale as an honor not a  plague.  I really don't care what "outsiders" think.  (Trust me, they think that anyway!  I didn't intend for this to become what it has.  I  try to live my live by only one dictum, "...judge not, lest you be udged by the same measure."  It's karma, it WILL come around.

     I hope I haven't offended, I hope someday to meet you.  Sincerely,  Pam Hernandez (Marissa's Mom)
=====================
From: margiekate@lindyhopping.com

No offense at all.  I appreciate what you have to say.  I do realize that most of the people who need to understand what we were saying are not going to pay any attention.

However, I was always raised to believe that it was wrong to stand by and say nothing when a wrong was being committed by others -- whether they are going to listen or not.  That it's wrong to allow unacceptable behavior to continue without at least expressing my opinion that it's unacceptable.   You seem to be saying that it's going to happen anyway, so why fight it?  It may be human nature on some level to make ourselves feel better, but it's also human nature to have the capacity to learn to rise above such pettiness.  I don't fight it expecting it to necessarily change -- but I'm the type of person who can't stand by and just allow it to happen.

But this wasn't just my idea -- I have been hearing from many of my friends and from others that people don't like what's going on in portions of the LA swing scene.  The more I heard it, the more I felt that it needed to be given a voice -- I had the power to do that, and I used it.  Will it change anything?  That remains to be seen.  At the very least, for those of us for who this has been painful to watch have been able to air their feelings on it, which is worthwhile.

I've been dancing Lindy Hop for about six years now, and the Lindy Hop scene used to be very different -- one of the things we all enjoyed was that everyone involved seemed to be so accepting of others -- but that's the product of having been as small a community as it was back when I started.  Growth happens (which has been wonderful), and with it, there is more diversity, which is good.  I've also been doing this web page and e-mail list for three years -- probably 8-15 hours a week (completely voluntarily), so you perhaps can understand why I find it difficult to watch factions form that I feel have the ability to tear apart a swing community I love.

I agree that in the end, those who sow negativity will reap it.  However,  in my mind, that doesn't absolve me of my responsibility to express my opinion that it's wrong.  I don't expect others to necessarily agree with me -- I don't expect to express it without creating some waves.

I respect what you are saying, and I do hope to get to meet you sometime.  I hope you can see a little more why I decided to start this whole discussion in the first place, and if not, that's OK with me too... :-)

Best Regards,

Margie
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