I think that so many people honstely don't know what style they are doning. They just know that they like to dance. And isn't that the wonderful thing avout dancing, is that everyone could have something new to bring to the mixing pot and it just makes it more fun. I agree with what Rusty Frank said,  which is that there is no worng way to dance. It is all right. I would hope that we can all be adults and see that things change. We don't need to be scard of change, but rather embrasse it and learn from it. Dancing it meant to grow not stay the same. So why don't we all let dancing grow and change and bring a little bit of our selfs to that change.

P.S. It is true, that if you don't something nice to say, don't say it at all.  Let's remeber dancing is meant to be fun not hurtful.
=======================
From: Swingerela@aol.com

I'm really glad to see this issue being addressed. It's only natural to have certain preferences about the way you dance and who you dance with. And a little healthy competition between dancers can be a positive motivator for creating new moves. But insulting other people for the way they dance or their style is just plain disrespectful. Imagine if people had insulted Frankie Manning for diverting from the status quo style when he performed the first aerial!

Perhaps we should take our cue from the old-timers on this one. They didn't make so many distinctions between the different styles of lindy ò back then,  it was all just lindy hop.

When I focus on the fact that we're all doing lindy hop, rather than what we're doing different, I'm reminded I'm fortunate to have so many people who share my interest in the dance I love so much.

Leslie Goodbar
==============================
Rhonda Frankforter < retrorhonda@hotmail.com wrote:

I have been dancing for 6 years and pride myself on being able to follow most leads with some grace. I try.  It's funny. I lived up in San Francisco for a year and was pegged for my Hollywood style dancing. I didn't used to call it that though. There are defineatly regional dialects with every dance, it's amazing. Now, I learned to dance at PBDA and just have certain movements I favor.  I would dance with people and they'd say "Oh, I bet it's hard for other people to lead you when you're not doing savoy style". Give me a break.  Some times I think people just forget to have fun. I didn't say what I wanted to him which is "I bet it's hard for other peope to dance to your lindy slop lead", and I'm glad I didn't cuz I didn't want to create ill-feelings. But it is a good line.  I've noticed that no one wants to take the responsibility when two styles clash. But, hey! It's dancing, so when a difference occurs, it's because the guy didn't lead it... right? If the girl fought it and is expecting that's another matter.  I think touch dancing is about communicating anyway,which can be very experimental at times, now that's fun! I embrace all styles, I'm just not good at them all like Hillary was saying. I think teachers might include etiquette on any beginning lessons to ease some of this tension.

But know, LA does not take the cake on superiority and rudeness. San Francisco does it too, and I imagine anywhere there's dancing, you'll find the same problems.

Hey, it's just dancing Right? Thank you guys for opening the subject.  Sincerely

Retro Rhonda
and don't forget... to swing out!
============================
From: NSandburg@aol.com

Thank you Margie for bringing this up, and producing an open discussion.  You are right on the mark - dancing is for joy, movement with music, and positive interaction with other humans.
=============================
From: Ed Castillo < etcastle@pacbell.net

Margie,

It is about time someone brought this subject up because it has been weighing heavy on my heart. I have wanted to say something for awhile but I felt it was better left unsaid. I am usually not one to hold back but in this case I choose not to hold back any longer.

First I would like to say that I once used to be in that mode where I felt that my way was the only way but after becoming friends with some very influencial people in the swing scene, I realized that I needed to change my ways and I am proud to say that I am open to most forms of dance. I have even started learning Salsa, Hip Hop, and other types of dance to widen my horizon. By doing so, I have been able to become a more diversified dancer. I wish people would be more open instead of flaming each other.

I would agree with Sylvia and Peter and I believe the dance is meant to be fun and we should have a good time with it. Although I teach a certain a way or a specific style, I will not say that it is a better style than the next guy. It just so happens that the particular style I do is comfortable for me and just feels right which is Hollywood style. I encourage people to compare and see the differences between Savoy and Hollywood styles and whichever one they feel comfortable with is the one they should focus more on. I am now making it point to give my students an opportunity to see the differences in the dances and I let them know that Lindy Hop is simply Lindy Hop.

I am sorry to hear that some individuals are giving one group a bad name and I can only hope and pray that this attitude will somehow diminish. I believe that education is the key to understanding and then acceptance.

The e-mail you sent in regards to this issue has made me realize that I need to try harder on my end to help people be more accepting of any kind of dance. It needs to start somewhere.

Thank you,
Ed Castillo
===========================
From: "Cindy" < swing@bitstream.net

Margie,

My name is Cindy Geiger.  My friend Diane Hamlin just forwarded your discussion about dance etiquette, swing styles, etc.  I LOVE IT!!!!!  Let me give you a frame of reference.

I have been teaching swing dance for 20 years.  My teaching has always been based on the fun, high-energy, exciting movements and the lower jazzy styling that I saw in old movies and TV shows, rather than the "stand-up-straight-and-wiggle-your-Latin-hips" ballroom version.  About 10 years ago, Lance Benishek brought Frankie Manning to Minneapolis.  I thought I'd died and gone to heaven!  Here was the very impersonation of my philosophies!  (It was so lonely out there in "you're-not-ballroom-are-you" land!)  I have been diligently learning Lindy Hop ever since, from all the world-renowned biggies, both when they come to Minnesota, and when I travel throughout the country to events (and this past summer at Herrang!).

As an instructor, my goal has always been to show people how to go out and have a good time, using good lead-&-follow techniques, respecting each other, and HAVING FUN!!!  I've kept my eyes open and my mouth shut as I see the various instructors teach this way or that way, and the students going away, reciting the gospel of the latest hot dancer.  I've seen the same instructor teach one way as "right" one year, then another way as "right" the next!  I have invariably tried to take it all down to the level of good lead-and-follow that can be done with a perfect stranger on the dance floor.  What a conceivably marvelous way to get to know another person -- playing with music and movement on the dance floor!

As I have watched Swing and Lindy Hop grow in popularity over the last 20 years, I have seen this "perfectionism" attitude growing as well.  I call them "lindy snobs."  And I think it's a darned shame that their less-than-social attitude about this delightful social dance gets in the way of a really good time.

Oh, I better watch out.  You can tell this is one of my favorite soapboxes!!!  Anyway, I'm going to get to the point now.  My first point is that I'd like to substantiate your discussion three ways:

1)  In the Can't Top the Lindy Hop video, Frankie tells a story of creating a new move from someone else's that he saw and liked.  But, he made a big deal about making the move his own!  He also discussed the importance of personal creativity in dancing.  This goes directly against the concept of "one and only one right way."

2)  One of my FAVORITE dance partners travels south each winter from one dance event to another (he and his wife are retired), picking up moves,  styles, you name it.  He doesn't really do just one type of dancing, but is constantly mixing this and that together into GREAT lead and follow dancing!  It's like a really great amusement park ride!  It's FUN!

 3)  Dick Crum (renowned international dance instructor) once created these definitions:  CLASSIFICATION OF DANCERS
Beginning dancer. Knows nothing.
Intermediate dancer. Knows everything. Too good to dance with beginners.
Hotshot dancer. Too good to dance with anyone.
Advanced dancer. Dances everything. Especially with beginners.

I like your message so much because it's not just an LA problem, or even a California problem.  It's here in Minnesota, too, and I've seen it (like you said, in limited numbers, not everyone!) just about everywhere I've gone to lindy hop.

Thanks so much!  I appreciate your time and attention to this important issue!

-Cindy
=========================
From: "Victor Negri" < negri@scf-fs.usc.edu

Margie, I agree with everything that you and Frankie said in this discussion. In my opinion, both dancers, no matter what "style" or area that they come from should be able to adjust to the other's moves and combinations. It isn't about what style you belong to or what people you hang out with, it's all about the dance. If everything is stripped down to the essentials, hollywood or savoy, they are the same dance and it is still the same song that everyone is dancing to. Both partners should be able to function as a unit and should be able to follow each other's leads (not just one be the lead and the other the follow). And, above all, both should be having fun and not thinking to themselves, "Man, I could be dancing with XXX over there who's my style instead of this person."
===========================
>From: Elizabeth Bloombaum < zillla@earthlink.net

Though this is kind of late in response to your letter about dance etiquette, I thought I'd add a little note.  What I have noticed, as a dancer for more than 30 years in many different types of dance, from jazz dance, to international folk dance, to ballroom dance, to contra-dance, to Cajun/Zydeco dance and now to Lindy-Hop, is that when somebody does not KNOW how to do something, it seems like an automatic defense pops up: "I don't like it".  This is where the rudeness stems from, in my opinion. When a person covers up ignorance with a value judgment "I don't know it therefore I don't like it", it is exactly the same kind of prejudice that exists between groups of people who are "different" from each other. Unfortunately, it is the age-old expression of "I belong to *this* group, therefore *that* group is wrong/bad/ugly/stupid/ (insert whatever judgment you can think of here)."  Somehow, people who are insecure about themselves (i.e.,  don't know how to lead/follow very well) manage to feel "right" or "better" when they put others down (are rude).

It would be really great if we could turn to our partners and say,  "Hey, I don't know that step/style/move.  Will you show me how to do it?" It is a lot friendlier and more fun.

Thanks for the opportunity to express my analysis of the phenomenon.

Sincerely, Elizabeth
===========================
>From: "Hedman, Eric" < EHedman@maxis.com

Lindy Hop is a Social Dance.

I wouldn't say that Style of Hop is an issue as serious as racism.  Lindy Hop is only a dance. (Instructors are around to teach us to dance well hopefully, but not drag us into a cult of style or personality as sometimes happens.)  Lindy Hop is nothing to die over...Frankie gave it up for decades...scores of years..... It's a great dance....it's steps can be adapted to any musical style and principles combined with any other....Lindy is fun. The way you connect with your partners is like an accent in speech.

Dancing is a communcation process...I have heard of folks not wanting to dance with people because they never connect.... Dancing is a conversation.  Not two people shouting, or one expecting the other to just keep talking without any input. Rude people who leave the floor and emotionally hurt others as if you denigrated them for their limp handshake or the shape of their nose, should be treated as rude people are socially. When I ask someone to dance and they don't connect on one, and aren't around in the palm of my hand leaning back on four,  it makes me want to say...."Should I have asked if you want to dance with ME?"

For those who like to connect and swing around.....it's like flying  (sorry Lee and Terry and Tammi).  For some who find it hard to understand connection or don't want to connect, it's like walking a catwalk. Strutting to be sexy.  It seems to be a problem of education.....Lots of swiveling is the least important part for followers, but it is the coolest looking and most practiced folks with little body control or understanding of "dancing" as a social activity. I danced one night last week and never had a follow move toward me on one, or try to make up the distance on 3.....

That my friends....is like having a stutter.

I as a leader accomodated by hopping around like mad or simply stepping a straight eight without syncopation, because I can't do anything else and stay on time. I know for a fact it was mostly because all the music was more than 200 bpm...and to stay on the beat requires a little muscle, a little flexability and a lot of balance and coordination. I have the choice to dance with that person again or not from then on....the same way a follow has the right not to dance with a lead who leaves her out to be stepped on or body slammed on a crowded dance floor. I really like and sometimes adopt my partners. So if they are having trouble how could you possibly disown them?

Manners in Society are rare......it is up for instructors and advanced dancers to set an example. And teach and emphasize that a swing out, Or Lindy Whip is what happens on 4 and what it takes to get there....If it were about 1 and 2 it would be called a swivel-in, and if it were about showboating on 7 and 8 it would be called a wiggle-out. If we all started calling it a Lindy Whip would it be easier to understand?

If you can dance with Good Humor and Manners you will be prized and appreciated. If you dance with Style and Grace, never connect and have a bad attitude, you should got try out for Chicago or some West Side Story revival or something.

Lindy Hop is a Social Dance
===============================
>From: Kevin Schaper < kschaper@darkwing.uoregon.edu

I visited LA over the holidays, and I went away feeling that LA wasn't a good place for visiting lindy hoppers.

Nobody ever stopped in the middle of the dance, but even when I was an absolute beginner I didn't get so much ice from follows up here..  The third or fourth night that I went dancing I danced with a girl that said "Wow, you seem to know all the stuff I don't know" - and I realized that most of the other people I'd danced with made me feel like "Wow,  everything you know is crap"

On the other hand, I had a great time dancing with folks from arizona,  chicago, san francisco & san diego.

So, in my experience, the reputation that LA is earning is pretty accurate.  As hollywood style spreads around the coutnry though, visitors will have a better idea of what's expected, and I think they'll have an easier time finding that middle ground.

The real challenge is how to get dancers from LA to smile.. :)

kevin
==================================
From: UCLADJ@aol.com

Margie,

I'm an SF Lindy Hopper who first started dancing in L.A., and I thought your panelists made some great points. My experience with L.A. Hoppers has usually been OK, but I think the LA scene doesn't have the rep it should because of a different problem that seems fairly widespread. Is there some kind of unwritten agreement that forbids "smooth" style  dancers from smiling? It seems odd, I suppose, to focus on this issue, but with only a few exceptions that I can recall, there doesn't seem to be much smiling when the L.A. dancers are going at it.  Maybe it's the L.A. "cool" thing, but it does make an unpleasant impression when your partner isn't smiling. I'm not the only one to notice this; many others in the SF scene have commented on this, too. I don't expect every dance to be a smile-fest, but the occasional grin lightens things up wonderfully.  I entirely agree with the commentary about the dancer who bailed on her(?) partner. Extremely rude. Don't think I'd go as far as comparing it to a racial slur, but it is very rude.

DJ
=======================
From: Jennifer Miele < lindyhop66@earthlink.net

Thank you very much for your comments and the discussion you generated regarding lindy ettiquette.  I feel it brought a level of maturity and class back to the discussion.  I've seen those websites that are filled with put downs of various individuals and teachers and I find it really disturbing and disgusting.  Unfortunately, some people do have a "need" to put others down to feel good about themselves.  Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that your work on this site is greatly appreciated.

Jennifer Miele
======================
From: "Steve Wong" <swingd@earthlink.net>

Dear Dancers The "Open" has always been a WCS centric event, they do have a Lindy Division though.  Carolina Shag has been around in the South for years, it is a style of swing, there was never any leaving out Collegiate/St.Louis Shag. St.Louis Shag has always been done, in Lindy and WCS swing routines.  Good idea not to jump to conclusions and see enemies where there are none.  Steve Wong

Someone wrote:
"I've been to the U.S. Swing Open, where more people dance West Coast Swing (style), this event was suppose to be "swing" right, nah I hardly saw anyone who danced East Coast Swing (style).  Now is this US event suppose to cater to one style only? hmmmm.  Now in the shag division, and knowing only St. Louis Shag and Collegiate Shag, my eyes were open to a whole different style Carolina Shag.  But again the shag division only enveloped people from where, you guessed it, North and South Carolina. What happened to St. Louis and Collegiate, aren't they Shag also? or is it a different dance? hmmmmmm.  Shouldn't shag, just be shag, as lindy should be lindy?"
===============================
From: Bridget Gaynor <bridget@rhythm.com>
Subject: Etiquette in SF

Hi Margie,

In regard to the conversation about dance etiquette, I'm certain that many scenes have their issues, and all scenes will have some level of  rudeness, but the fact that LA is being labeled "rude" is cause for concern. Not only are we alienating our fellow LA dancers, but I'm afraid this will  deter outsiders from supporting our scene and we therefore risk loosing what has been a wonderful experience for many of us.

Went up to San Francisco last weekend to do some dancing, and I must admit I was amazed at how welcoming the SF dance scene is.  Went to several events and many different venues and the reception was always the same.  When asking someone to dance, they were more than happy to oblige.  In all cases there was friendly "dialogue" exchanged during the dance which increased both the fun and the quality of the dance. And most importantly at the end there was always a smile and a "thanks" and often an invitation  for another. It was a pleasure to be around such a cordial group and they were fun  to watch as well.

If you are being asked to dance, you should consider it a compliment and treat it as such.  As an example, if someone said they liked your clothes or your shoes you wouldn't be rude. So, why not accept the compliment of a dance?

Thanks for opening up the discussion.
-Bridget
===========================================
From: "peter" <fastfeet@gte.net>

Margie,
    Please don't refer to your disscussion Hollywood/savoy as a "debate". There is no Debate.
    Rather you should call it what you intended it to be about which WAS bad etiqette.
   Am I right? or do you want there really to be a "war" ? basically ,from what I'm hearing from others is what I was afraid of,dancers starting to talk [profanity deleted] about an issue We strongly put down ,unlike other big name studio's.Like I said in my first letter ,I didn't think any good would come out of this But I would help back you if needed.
                                  Peter
===========================================
From: Margie <margiekate@lindyhopping.com>

Hi Peter,

I appreciate what you're saying, however, I disagree as to definitions.  In my mind a debate involves an issue being discussed that has more than one side to it... this does not equate to a war.  I do believe there is more than one side to this discussion we're having.

I very consciously have been trying to come up with "headers" and titles for this that will 1) describe what I'm trying to convey (the issue of etiquette and plain good manners on the dance floor), but 2) also grab the attention of the people who are under the misconception that there is a Hollywood/Savoy "divide".

While you and I agree that Lindy Hop is Lindy Hop, regardless of the personal style you bring to it... the whole point of me bringing up this discussion is to try to get those who are rudely equating it with a "war" to try to see it in a different light.

I know you feel strongly about your position ... but I really have been choosing my words very consciously.  If you can recommend a better way for me to still grab the attention of those who do see this issue as a Hollywood/Savoy divide I'm open to suggestions.

Swingin'ly,

Margie
==================================
From: "peter" <fastfeet@gte.net>

you're right there might be more than one side however look at the sides....people who dance with anybody regardless of style [majority] and people who dance with people that only do their style [minority]. obviously it was someone in the minority that made a "rude" comment about who he/she dances with there is nothing wrong with wanting to dance with someone they see fit as "their" style ,even if he or she is rude,it's their life to live that unfortunate way.

[Margie wrote:]
"2) also grab the attention of the people who are under the misconception that there is a Hollywood/Savoy "divide"."

I understand that and you have done a good job in the past but it goes much deeper with this. The Hollywood/ Savoy is divided between authentic and Modern not east and west. It was the "Teachers" that labeled their dance in the 80's and 90's "Savoy" style which was an absoluty incorrect label.  Anyone who has seen any film clips from the 30's and 40's can clearly see what is being taught today as "savoy style "is not what was done, Therefore being that the term was "ruined" a new one emerged "Hollywood style " or "Hollywood movie style" to be more correct.

By simply posting "Hollywood /savoy debate" leads one to beleive that there is an actual debate going on about the dance and not the etiqette a dancers brings to it. Thus causing controversy. If this is about etiquette than let it be that,but let it be an honest one there are so few people that actually wouldn't dance with another dancer of another style I don't think it's worth the time.

There will always be a Divide between the dancers that want to preserve the Authentic style of Lindy and the dancers that want to evolutionize it into the future.I would rather keep it back where it was knowing the evolution last time killed however because of the head start of the"savoy" style hip hoppers on the Hollywood style I'm sure it has a while to still be around until people understand why they don't look like the dancers in the 30's and 40's.The "Debate" will go deep and leave the realm of etiquette which it was primaraly started for and I don't think the "Savoy/modern" teachers need any more unlikey publicity for miss labeling what they have taught.

As far as styles of dance go Frankie Called me on the phone about 2 weeks ago asking me about my article on Styles on my web site. He told me it was right on the money and the first time someone has actually hit it right on the head. ofcourse he asked how I knew all that at age 32 as I expressed the fact that I was on a mission to preserve the dance that has not been taught historically correct except by  very few individuals that rarely come to LA.  Ofcourse I blessed Frankie for Giving me the dance I truely love and for approving my writings for which I feel are important for spreading the truth on the history of dance.

So now it's our turn ,the dancers that what to preserve Lindy in it's Authentic state,whatever style or person you want to emmulate [Leon James,Dean Collins,Shorty George etc..] As the movement grows and grows ,I really hope it takes over the world, knowing I'll always dance with that girl who chooses to do a style that came and went in the 80's and 90's called "savoy style".

your truely, Peter Loggins
===================================