Heidi wrote,
----begin quote-----
On the subject of dancing and etiquette: Please remember when you go out dancing to a LIVE BAND they are performing their hearts out for  you! Many,  many bands from all around the country get very demoralized playing at shows where the dancers never clap or show their  appreciation, or even worse, plunk their butts on the stage while the  band is playing, with their backs to band so they can watch a dance  jam. What's wonderful about this scene is the synergy between bands and  dancers. If you don't want your favorite bands to stop playing  dance-oriented shows as they have more and more options open to them in  the mainstream, then You need to show them the respect they deserve!!!
----end quote-----

As a bandleader, I appreciate what Heidi has to say about this.  However, I want to add that when a band is playing for DANCERS, the best compliment the band can receive (IMHO) is a floor full of dancers hitting those breaks and being one with the music.  To me, I'd rather see the dancers so caught-up in the music and the vibe that they completely lose track of the time, and all of a sudden it's the last song, and they shout for an encore.  This is much different than a "concert" situation.  So, I'd say this:  If your a dancer and you like the band... dance!  Applaud for the band if you feel so moved.   But the band is there to entertain you (the dancers), not the other way around.

-Pete Jacobs
Wartime Radio Revue
www.wartimeradio.com
========================
From: "Victor Negri" <negri@scf-fs.usc.edu>

I just thought that it was funny that a few people said that Hollywood dancers don't smile. It's very true. I see the same thing. I'm not saying that ALL Hollywood dancers don't smile but it's a very apparent phenomenon.  I dance both Savoy and Hollywood and recently I've been noticing that I've been dancing with the Savoyish style dancers more, not because they are "SAVOY" buy because they smile and seem to have more fun with me. After a dance with a Hollywooder that I don't know personally, I sometimes get the feeling that I was the worst dance that person's had the entire night and it makes me not want to ask that person to dance anymore cause it just ruins my night. So maybe it's not the different leads and follows of the different styles, maybe it's just the different attitudes on the dance floor. Bottom line: People should just have fun and not care who their lead/follow is. If the person is better than you, learn from them; if the person is a beginner,  teach them more so that maybe next time, they won't be a beginner anymore.  In either case, have fun, have fun, have fun.
=================
From: Edward Galloway <eagalloway@compuserve.com>

Unfortunately, your story of the dancer abandoning another dancer after only a few moments is getting all too common.  It is not the entire problem though-- it is a symptom of a larger problem.  As several of the respondents have already said--and I agree with them--this has resulted primarily from the divergence between Savoy and Dean Collins dancers--particularly some very young people who have some growing up to do.  We all have our favorite styles of dancing.  It's natural.  But any lead who does this sort of thing to a person he asks to dance ought to have his dance permit revoked.

Years ago, when I first started dancing, my ballroom dance instructor asked me what my job was when I went out on a dance floor and asked a woman to dance.  I guessed one answer after another--about ten I think--each of which she pronounced wrong.  To dance well, I guessed.  To do all kinds of moves.  To dance to the music.  Each time she shook her head.  I will never forget her words:  Your job is to make that woman you're dancing with feel like a million bucks, and you have to figure out what it takes to do it for each woman.  It's different every time.  Even if she's a lousy dancer, your job is to make her feel like she's the greatest.

Frankie Manning said the same thing more succinctly:  You are dancing with a Queen.

Any guy who would walk out on a woman because she dances a different style from the guy doesn't know the first thing about swing.  Swing isn't about knowing a thousand moves, even though we all try to learn as many moves as we can.  It's about attitude.  Have fun.  Put a smile on your face and have fun with who you're dancing with.  Sometimes that may mean lots of moves, but moves are not the point.

A good lead ought to know how to dance all kinds of styles.  When I ask someone to dance,  if I don't know what her favorite style is, I ask her before we start, "Do you prefer Dean or Savoy?"  You'd be amazed at the smile that question generates on so many women's faces.  Whatever they say, that's what I do for the next few minutes.

That, I think, is what swing is supposed to be about.  And it is the job of those of us who have been dancing longer, and who are a little older, to pass on that attitude and that most basic form of etiquete to the younger dancers, just as it was passed down to us.  If we don't, we will drive away all the new dancers who want to learn and keep this great dance going on after us. ====================================
"I will never forget her words:  Your job is to make that woman you're dancing with feel like a million bucks, and you have to figure out what it takes to do it for each woman.  It's  different every time.  Even if she's a lousy dancer, your job is to make her feel like she's the greatest."

"Frankie Manning said the same thing more succinctly:  You are dancing with a Queen."
.....

"A good lead ought to know how to dance all kinds of styles."
-Ed Galloway

>From: "Richard Parman" <RParman@jefco.com>

Edward Galloway's comment (about the man's job while he is dancing) was quite illuminating. It also provoked discussion with fellow dancers as to what the equivalent focus would be for the woman.

We were not able to come up with anything as clear and simple.  Any thoughts on what would be the equivalent focus for the woman?
========================
From: margiekate@lindyhopping.com

OK, here's my humble guess and I'm certainly interested to hear what other follows out there have to say.

Based in part on the feedback I got from the leads when I did the research for the "Notes for Followers" on my website, I'd say the woman's job isn't as different from the man's as it might first seem -- her job is to make the man feel that he is the best lead she's ever danced with for those 2-5 minutes she's dancing with him (and this is even if all he can lead is
basics) -- and it's not an act she puts on either... if she loves to dance,  and loves the music, and is a good follower, basics are wonderful -- even for an entire song!

It might seem at first that either Ed's statement or my statement make it sound like it's all one person's responsibility to adjust to the other person.  The reality of it is more like this... two dancers of similar advanced ability and training are generally going to both make slight adjustments in order to comfortably dance with the other person.  They'll do this without really being aware that they are doing it, because adjusting to your partner is part of what it takes to become a more advanced dancer.  In a case where there is a disparity in the level of dancer, in most cases, the more advanced dancer will find that they have to do more adjusting than their partner is doing.  The fact of the matter is,  the less experience you have, the harder it is to adjust to anything that is not what you're used to, and the more experienced dancer must make up for that (because they can!) in order for both of them to enjoy the dance.

So ultimately, IMHO, I think we should all be striving to be flexible in our dancing on the dancefloor -- which was the whole point of bringing up this topic in the first place

Best,
Margie
=============================
From: Rob Shrewsbury <shrewsbu@yahoo.com>

I visit your site every so often, and may have read your article "Dance Etiquette -- It's all the same Dance Folks!" before, but this time it seemed to have a different meaning. I think I have recently run across these individuals you refer to in a swing forum online.  They very much believe that "their way is the only way" when it comes to dancing, and bashed anyone in the forum who listened to, or danced a different style than they do. A very immature attitude. It's sad,  but I think they have turned away many beginners. Also, I think I have seen a web page that must be put together by this same group. I know we do things differently out here on the east coast, but I was starting to get a bad impression of the LA scene. Thanks for clearing everything up!

By the way, how big is this group of people and what is their problem  (if anyone knows)?

Thanks,
Rob
=======================
From: Lindy7@webtv.net

Hi Margie, I have enjoyed reading your  interesting Savoy/Hollywood debate, and one thing I have been feeling strongly was no one really looks this situation at more deeper level which happen to be the original cause of this interesting phenomena we have.  What am I talking about?  I realized no one talks about the instructors who teach Swing dance including Lindy Hop.  As you may know, In this business, we are not regulated by the Federal or State Law.  Which means there is no Bar Exam, State Exam or any recognized license to be a dance instructor.  Pretty much anybody can proclaim himself or herself as a dance instructor if one wants.

When new people come to learn how to Lindy, majority don't even know what's the Lindy Hop.  In other words, no one really know the difference between real authentic Savoy style and Hollywood style to begin with until someone teach them how to lead and follow Savoy or Hollywood style or others.         At this point, students can be directed toward any point ...Savoy, Hollywood or Ballroom Style Lindy Swing....It's up to the instructor.  However one thing is for sure.   This is the most critical period for the new students because whatever style they are introduced will most likely be their style because people have a tendency to remember whatever they learn first.  So if one learns the wrong stuff or picks up the wrong habit, it is very difficult to correct that habit later.  (I have experienced this persoally when I started to learn Lindy.   It took my side of conscious effort to get rid of wrong stuff.)

So now it comes to my point.  Having no regulated teaching style or system, how do you decide which instructor to choose?   Well, I think most of the people who go to bars/clubs to learn Lindy or Swing have no choice.

But then again, they may not be so serious about learning dancing, and just wanna have some spaghetti arm fun...like back room of you know where....I think majority go by having no choice, therefore they are forced to face certain style.  So whoever teaching at that place is responsible for spreading that particular style and attitude that comes with.

We know many people say Hollywood style dancers don't smile and have no personality (everyone does the same fast move) compare to Savoy style dancers.........AhhHa!!  Kids will learn the stuff from their parents.  Students will learn whatever they can pick up from their teachers.  What a thought!!

Instructors like Erin and Steven from PBDA have learned the real authentic Savoy style Lindy Hop directly from the legend, Frankie Manning, and directly responsible for finding him in NY and bringing him back to Ca.       (You all know the story), and have been teaching the real stuff for 16 years!!  I think that is a hell of a credentials and experiences.  Also I noticed many so called "teachers" would teach you the moves, but not many would teach or emphasize on how to enjoy / taste the music and feel the joy of dance like Erin does.  Series of moves and patterns don't  get you anywhere!!  After all, people would like to have fun and feel good when they dance.  They want to see smiles and communicate with each other.  Maybe that's what people have learned at PBDA.  Maybe that's why unlike Hollywood style, Savoy Lindy hoppers look so happy when they dance.  Maybe that's why dancers and non dancers are noticing that difference.  So instructor's quality is very important when it comes to learn.  Winning some contests or U.S. open don't mean that much.  Although U.S open has been happening for quite sometimes,  swing dance has been West Coast Swing until recently because back then,  EC Swing and Lindy was not happening at all!!  ( West Coast Swing is the official California State dance!!)  So very few EC Swing dancers and Lindy Hoppers were in the U.S.open and of course PBDA sent nobody, so Hollywood style dominated.  In those situation, winning or losing doesn't count that much.   Besides the judges don't know what to look for cuz they don't know what the heck is the Lindy hop......I think young kids are more into flashy Hollywood style and more mature people who can afford to taste the joy of dance would enjoy Savoy style.

Thanks Margie and keep up the good work!!
=================================
>From: Larry Tranberg <tranny@ix.netcom.com>

I recently went to a workshop given by Norma Miller.  She was one of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers, regularly danced with Frankie Manning and other greats.  Essentially, she and a handful of others in this group created swing dancing.  When the question regarding what the difference between  Hollywood, East Coast, or whatever the style was, she made it clear that they all are derivations of THE LINDY!

My take on it is just SHUT UP AND DANCE!
===================================
From: John Cooper <swingking@earthlink.net>

Although the full implications of the dancer etiquette issue may have eluded me, I felt that in the first case that many if the people who are associated with 'Hollywood Style' Lindy were put on the defensive by what I feel was the somewhat specious premise of the 'debate' between 'Hollywood Style' and 'Savoy' dancers.  Most of the respondents were 'Hollywood' stylers and what else were they supposed to say? Just about everyone made the attempt to sound conciliatory because to do much else in their own defense (which should have been needed anyway) would have come across as combative. So little or no point was served.

As far as Camp Hollywood being profitable....well, what difference should it make to anyone? Hilary and her associates did a superb job of putting on that affair (especially for a first time function) and there were only minimal changes needed for tweaking up the event for next year as opposed to the colossal failure of, let's say, Crown City Swing. As far as I know,  everyone involved in organizing Camp Hollywood have full time jobs and setting up CH took tons of time and effort and everyone I know who went had a good time and learned a lot from recognized teachers. The music was great, the people were friendly and it was arguably the best event of the season. There is ZERO reason for Hilary Alexander to be put on the defensive if she happened to make some money for all her work and the attention to detail and the devotion that was evident, not to mention the endless hours of preparation of which NO ONE who has not attempted to stage such an event has ANY concept.

As Bill Elliott noted in his Satin Ballroom post, to the outsider, it may appear that money is rolling in by the carload, but it ain't. If you break even on a first event, you are mighty lucky. If you make a profit, you done good...and you probably deserve it!  Swingcerely,
John Cooper
========================
From: margiekate@lindyhopping.com

Dear John,

If the Hollywood style dancers were put on the defensive by what I wrote,  then I did not do my job in writing it.  The problem is not limited to one group or the other -- both groups have small factions of people who are convinced that "their way is the only way" and my intent was to point out that while this is probably a pretty normal human reaction, it pains me to see the swing community being portrayed negatively because of a VERY small number of people, and I also wanted to perhaps get those people to think twice about HOW they interact with dancers who dance a different style regardless of their personal preference.

I disagree strongly with you that "little or no point was served" in bringing up this topic.  The feedback I've gotten from people (not all of which I've posted at the author's requests) indicates that to the contrary,  people have been very glad to see this issue addressed in the way that it has been.  If there are people out there that still don't feel their voices on the issue have been heard, I invite them to write and express their opinion.  That's what this forum is for and why I started the discussion.....

I couldn't agree with you more that Hillary should not have been put on the defensive about her event.

Thanks for sharing your point of view.  I don't expect anything I ever say to change anyone's attitudes or opinions, however, I do hope that it at least gets them thinking....

Swingin'ly,
Margie
===========================
>From: "Paul Labrador" <paul.labrador@gte.net>

They say everything is bigger and brighter in LA...even the disagreements!  As a non-LA dancer (I learned to Lindy in Texas of all places), I'd lke to add my two cents worth:

1.  IT'S ONLY A DANCE FOLKS!!!!  It's meant to be enjoyed first and foremost.  If you aren't having fun, no matter which style you do, then you might as well quit 'cause you just don't get it!

2. Be glad that your scene is large enough to HAVE different styles.  Here in San Antonio, we are lucky just to have dancers who know how to Lindy.  Although, we dance primarily Savoy style, we love learning all styles of Lindy Hop.

    Like Frankie said, it's all the same dance.  The difference is how each individual styles it!----Paulie Labrador
=========================
From: Rob Shrewsbury <shrewsbu@yahoo.com>

It's really sad that you have dancers out there with this kind of attitude. Sounds like alot of them are sore about the whole "swing revival". I'm really tired of reading in message forums the ole we-were-swing-before-swing-was-in bit. Accompanied by this is usually how all the "new" or "neo" swing bands suck. Sure, some of them arn't that great, but I think many are doing a great job (RCR,  BBVD, ect.). The way I look at it, they are exposing a generation raised on MTV to something of more substance and class. I'd rather see people packing into swing clubs than see them doing the bump and grind at a techno club.

Our scene here in Orlando is fairly new, but it's really taking off.  We have alot of beginners. Most are dancing single time east coast,  but many have progressed to tripple and Lindy. Of the more advanced dancers here, I haven't seen anyone who is set on one "correct" way of dancing. Many, like myself, dance several styles... whatever fits the music the best. I'm sure in time we'll have people here with the immature attitudes, if we don't already. Personally, I'd rather see people become good dancers in whatever style(s) they choose... having good lead/follow and good dance floor etiquette.
Anyways, thats my 2 cents on things.

Rob
===================
From: Toni Czechorosky <tczechorosky@yahoo.com>

Margie: I have to comment on Hilary's (and Peter/Lisa and Erik and Sylvia's) determination and dedication for the dance camp they put on....it was one of the best I have seen and they presented it with class, authenticity and detail....FYI: Hilary works full time and she didn't take ONE DAY OFF FROM WORK to prepare fore this event....some times I think we forget that alot of us in the "swing world" have other commitments and lives we revolve in.  Sure we would all love to stay out till 2:00 and dance 7 days a week but car payments, family,  and life beckons...

I always say, "if actions speak louder then words then let's get moving" Try to host an event like this and you will understand the preassures and demands it takes....

Thanks again Hilary....
TC
SWINGTIME MAGAZINE
====================
From: Swingerela@aol.com

<< "I will never forget her words:  Your job is to make that woman you're dancing with feel like a million bucks, and you have to figure out what it takes to do it for each woman.  It's  different every time.  Even if she's a lousy dancer, your job is to make her feel like she's the greatest."

<<"Frankie Manning said the same thing more succinctly:  You are dancing with a Queen." ..... <<-Ed Galloway

<<From: "Richard Parman" <RParman@jefco.com>

<<Edward Galloway's comment (about the man's job while he is dancing) was quite illuminating. It also provoked discussion with fellow dancers as to what the equivalent focus would be for the woman. We were not able to come up with anything as clear and simple. Any thoughts on what would be the equivalent focus for the woman? >>

In the above quotes, replace "woman" with the word "man". Replace "her" with "him". Replace "King" with "Queen". Replace "lead" with "follow".

In other words, make him feel as good as you'd like to feel when you're dancing.

Leslie Goodbar
=======================
From: Tim Mathis <tmathis@smtpgtwy.ausd.k12.ca.us>

The guy's  job is to make his partner look good. The gal's job is to look like she is having a good time.
========================
From: Doug Kihn <swingdancer@earthlink.net>

I read with interest the comments from one lindy-hopper from the Bay area about snobby, somewhat unfriendly L.A. dancers, and I was reminded of the fact that L.A. is the alienation capital of the world.  We all drive our own private cars, live in our private living spaces, and throw away friends when they no longer serve our short-term goals.  It stands to reason that we throw away dance partners if they are not BMWs or Mercedes Benzs.  That's life in the fast lane, and it is naturally reflected on the dance floor.

I would like to see: 1. More advanced dancers willingly dancing with those of less ability, and enjoying it.  (Especially good follows with leads of less ability. Ladies, in this situation, please when the first dance is over, ask the lead if you could make one "little" suggestion to improve his dancing, make the suggestion, and then ask for a second dance and give him a chance to improve.) 2. More Savoy and Hollywood stylers crossing over.  I ask the partner (if I don't know her well) which style she prefers before the dance starts.  Paraphrasing Erin Stevens, "All styles are valid.  Why not learn them all?" 3. More smiles on the faces of Hollywood stylers.  If my memory serves, I believe I saw Dean Collins and Jewell McGowen always smiling in the films.
===============================
From: Michael Bennett <hepcatz@earthlink.net>

Margie,

Thanks again for the great work you do.  Last I wrote about our wedding that my wife and I had, and something I forgot to mention was that we did have younger dancers that cannot get into a 21 and over club.  It was not only refreshing but when one thinks for just a split second you can draw on the experience of many to come to the conclusion that we need the younger generation to carry the torch if we want this to stick.  I for one, am happy (I'm 30 by the way) that under 21 dancers have a place to go. Without them, the "fad" if you will, would die out and we'd be left with FEW IF ANY venues to go to.  The older crowds, no matter how involved you are now, have a tendency to move to the next fad quickly.  When we incorporate all generations into something as wonderful as partner dancing, we have a whole population that is represented without leaving other out. Frankly if you don't want the younger dancers, go somewhere else and quit bitching about it.  They are right in that they have VERY FEW opportunities to dance.  If you can't take seeing someone else excel at dancing and they are younger than you, then grow up and quit trying to push them down.  They have as much right to dance as anyone, and without them "swing fever" will end up being a "swing flu".

Sorry if you have to edit the b word.  Im just frustrated listening to some people whine.

[Editor's note -- I chose to leave it in.  My apologies to anyone whom this offends. - Margie]

Humbly... Best Regards, Michael Bennett hepcatz@earthlink.net mbennett@aopdirect.com
=======================
From: "Rea, Wendy" <WRea@sccu.edu>

Dear Margie,
        After quietly reading the enormous amounts of postings on this subject, I've decided to stick my 2 cents worth in. First, I admire your effort to put aside differences and create some unity on the swing scene, which is both a worthwhile and formidable cause.
         I think the best comments that have been made so far have been the ones that stress the real reason why most people pursue and engage in this little subculture of ours: it's fun.  After reading Rob's comment on the Orlando swing scene, I started thinking. Having just returned from a small tour of Orlando and Tampa with Eddie and the band, I was impressed of the continuity and the fun-loving spirit that all the dancers I encountered in Florida demonstrated. It continually reminded me not only of the Orange county and L.A. scene a while ago, but also of the underlying motivation for the growth of swing- it's a benign and engaging movement with "substance and class" that draws people from all walks of life, no matter how well you dance.
        As to the debates on style, and even music. It's a matter of taste and opinion. Potatoe, Potato, swing/schwing, hollywood/savoy. I have a personal affinity for recreating the history of this movement, both in dance and music. I love to look out and see, as I did at Hillary's wonderful and well organized Camp Hollywood, a room full of people dressed to the nines and dancing their hearts out. But what matters even more to me is listening to the music. If dance is about interpretation, then style and technique should reflect the music itself. I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but if it is no longer enjoyable for any reason, be it petty differences of style or simply a bad attitude, then why bother?
         I deeply respect ALL of those who have made this dance both their passion and their lifestyle, and have dedicated all those hours to maintaining historical integrity in their dance. I also respect however, those who choose to make the dance their own and dance it however they choose. I don't care who APPEARS to be having more fun than others- who falls in the category of neo-swing or classic swing- and even more importantly, who makes any money. Why does it bother anyone if they make a few dollars? You get what you pay for in life- and if you walk away from an event feeling as though you got your moneys worth, then go home happy. It takes a lot of effort, time, pain, and financial investment to play this music and/or organize these events (as Toni put it so well). I have no qualms about those who do so making enough to pay their bills. As I think most of those who do so will tell you, the real pay off has nothing to do with financial gain (what little there is to be made), and far more to do with personal satisfaction. We should learn to enjoy and appreciate the music, the dance, and EACH OTHER far more than it appears we are. I have found those in the swing scene, be it L.A., Texas, or Tampa, to be some of the most enjoyable and diverse people I've ever had the pleasure of encountering. And that, to me, is far more important that money, style, or any debate.

Sincerely,         Wendy Rea

[Editor's Note: You go girl!!!! - Margie]
========================
From: "Dan Gonzalez" <proffgsr@hotmail.com>

I read your response to all the debate that was going on at margiekate@lindyhopping.com. I totally agree with your point of view. I too learned from PBDA at the swing camps and have noticed that they do emphasize the fun aspect of dancing. I took the basic steps I learned from these lessons and tweaked them so that I felt comfortable with them. Erin and Steven always seem to be enjoying themselves whether its with each other or with a new dancer. My whole purpose for dancing is to have fun. Yeah, there are better dancers out there, but I still have fun!

Thanks, Dan
 =====================
From: "Brian Lee" <zooter@hotmail.com>

I'm a dancer that started in Santa Barbara, started out savoy, and then went to Camp Hollywood.  The first time I saw a Hollywood style couple was in Simi Valley at a swing competition.  I remember not really liking it because the attention was primarily focused on the man versus making the woman look good.  These particular dancers almost had a comical cartoon feel to them.  Thinking back to that first moment I realized that it seemed so much more fun.  I could make the girl look good, but if I wanted to look good there were moves I could do.  I kept that style in the back of my mind and thought it would be real swell to bring such a different style of lindy to S.B.  When I heard about camp hollywood I signed up and so did a bunch of other SB dancers.  We all learned hollywood style and brought it back, but we did manage to leave the negative attitudes associated with the style.  Now I split my dancing time between S.B. and LA.  When I come up to SB I'm always welcome. When I go down to LA I'm welcome by some, but there are a lot of insecure people that do not know proper respect and ettiquette.  I think it boils down to a person's life.  To some of these LA dancers(not savoy, but hollywood style) swing has consumed their lives.  I compare it to an addiction and we all know how it feels.  With so many venues, in particular Memeories and The Derby(weeknights) these dancers have become lindy junkies.  It has deteriorated the way they treat others especially if they're not on the same dance level as they are.  I must admit I went through this phase, but I realized how arrogant and rude I had become and changed my ways.  I wish the hollywood dancers in LA wouldn't be so closed to newbies and out of town visitors.  They use SB as an example, we welcome everyone, and know how to have fun.  The very nature of this conflict, being highly political(allocation of dancing time and skills)will take a long time to fix.  We can only hope that people will step back and see what they're doing and maybe adopt the golden rule, by treating others like they would like to be treated.

-Zoot
 ============================
From: TBoneTommy@aol.com Subject: Dance Etiquette

Thank you for providing a place for us to share views and allow open dialogue on some very important issues in the swing scene.  I'd like to steer away from the savoy/hollywood debate a little and discuss another issue of etiquette: how to dance responsibly on a crowded dance floor.  I've been dancing for about eight months and it seems to me the more crowded a dance floor is, the less basic courtesy and common sense is practiced.  It is really becoming dangerous out there when people are packed on the dance floor, back-to-back, and there are dancers who do not keep to their own small area but insist on doing swing-outs and other bold moves with total disregard for the other dancers around them.  I understand a lot of the dancers are really new to the scene and just don't know any better, but I really find fault with the more experienced dancers who do this. I danced next to a fairly experienced couple on a particulary overcrowded night at Club Caprice and watching them do swing- outs with no room, I knew it was only a matter of time before someone got hurt.  Sure enough, the guy sent his partner right into another girl, hitting her on the head pretty badly.  Sometimes, it seems these dancers have this attitude that they know it's crowded, but they'll do their flashy dancing anyway because they want to show off their dancing skill or they just think because of their perceived superiority that they deserve more dance space than those around them.  Plus, the other people around these dancers will usually just defer and get out of their way and let them have their space.  I don't know if that's due to better manners or just a desire to not want to end up in the hospital, but in any case, the irresponsible couple is allowed to keep on dancing and endangering those around them.  Shouldn't these people know better and be setting a more responsible example for other dancers to follow?  I was taught by my swing teachers to always "apologize profusely" no matter how slight any collision, and often, when it's not my fault to begin with, I'll be the first one to turn around and apologize and not even get a reciprocating gesture or response.  At the last Satin Ballroom where I met you for the first time, my little sister went home with red ankles and calves because she was being kicked so often, and what really prompted me to write to you was the lastest incident I was involved in at the Derby this past Saturday when another experienced dancer wanted to start a fight with me after I asked him to watch his dancing and to stop kicking my partner and I.  It's getting too ridiculous out there.  I think all of us who are experienced should know better and take it upon ourselves to be responsible and to set a good example for all.  There is just no excuse for irresponsible dancing and immature behavior out there.  One, it's just plain rude, and two, it's inherently dangerous.

Just my two cents, Tom "T-Bone" Nguyen

================================

From: Paul Maranto paulmaranto@inficad.com

Margie and everyone involved in this discussion,

The fact that someone would walk off the floor and dump their partner like that because of a difference in style just blows my mind! A little respect for the person you are dancing with would be nice.

I have never seen or heard anything from any of the teachers of both styles of lindy that would lead a student to believe that they can't dance with a person who uses another style in their swing. I don't know where people get this idea.

I fully agree with Sylvia that people are misinterpreting the differences in the styles and the differences in the leads.

I believe that education is the answer.

Quality dancing should be taught in every style. And I believe that there is a great deal of quality instruction coming from both styles. The teachers can't help it if students interpret things wrong. All we can do is to keep teaching good dancing and try our best to influence the social aspects and etiquette in a positive way.

I personally dance many styles of swing and have for many years. I love the fact that there are variations in style. It is a big part of what makes this dance so fun and interesting.

The world of dance would get very boring if we all danced exactly the same way.

Just think how boring the world itself would be if we all looked and acted the same way.

Diversity is fun and it is what makes living so exciting.

I think it is possible to progress and art form while maintaining it's roots.

I really hope for all of us that this conflict stops and people learn to dance and appreciate all the styles.

Dancers should empty their cup and open their minds and learn so they can enjoy, without boundaries, the great experience that comes from dancing with another person and enjoy that moment.

Paul Maranto
Arizona Lindy Hop Society
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From: "Alan Parsons" craziap@msn.com

Hey y'all,

Since I have been "researching" L.A. for my trip out west at the end of the summer, I thought I'd drop a line. I've been reading this thread with interest, and I don't think that anyone has touched upon a very important point: this is NOT isolated to L.A. In fact, the Savoy/Hollywood (Dean Collins/G.I.) style debate has been raging since the late 30s. I have to agree with you Margie, it's a debate, plain and simple. It's a debate between two groups of people who don't understand the dance. Those of us who have a spiritual or intimate connection to the dance, we sit at the sidelines and watch the debate, giggling to ourselves. How silly this will all seem after another 100 years.

I was born in Sacramento, grew up in Northern Virginia, and now reside in Madison, Wisconsin. I first encountered Savoy style Lindy Hop in the Wash, D.C. area two years ago. (Yes, I'm technically post-GAP, but I just didn't know where to find it!) Since then, I've picked up many other things, including Hollywood style Lindy, Carolina Shag & Balboa. I'm not bragging, I'm just making a point. The best dancers, the ones that we all drool over and admire, rarely get involved in these debates. After all, why cut yourself off from an entire wealth of different moves and styles, simply because you had the misfortune of growing up on the West Coast? (That is sarcasm, guys. I love the west...) My partner, Laura, and I will switch back and forth between styles in the middle of songs, and we have fun. While we more readily go into Savoy style, I know it's not because of a deficiency in Hollywood style, or in ourselves for liking Savoy, it's simply because it's what we communicate the best in. We've taken workshops with Frankie, we learned Savoy first, and we've never had any real lessons in Hollywood style. We call in favors throughout the country, asking for tapes of the locals, learning what we can from them (I have some great tapes of LA dancers... if only Madison had the same ambient level of ability). The most amusing part? Those who tend to bash a specific style are either frightened of it, or don't understand it. People get frightened too easily. Ooh, a different dance. Maybe I can't dance it. Maybe I won't look perfect the first time. Maybe I'm afraid to admit I'm human. I sometimes fall in this category, and on more than one occasion I've had to eat my words.

You'd think that after 60+ years, we would have gone beyond this. I don't know, I'm usually too busy dancing to debate on the sidelines. Here in Madison, this debate has just begun, as Hollywood style is being introduced. Already, the traditional West Coast Swing vs. East Coast Swing debate has been raging for years. A newer debate, East Coast vs. Lindy is heating up. Seems there are a few people badmouthing ECS. A lot of us in Madison sit out during the extremely fast, ECS numbers, so I guess the wrong impression was given. We don't sit out because we don't like ECS, we're just tired from all the Lindying we're doing.

Anyway, I thought I'd share.

Alan Parsons

P.S. Don't even THINK about e-mailing me about the Alan Parsons Project. I already know.
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From: "Alverson, Terry" tla@mascosupport.com

My eye was drawn particularly to the comments by the lady who felt nothing should be said because rudeness is going to happen anyway. My question to her would be, "Who would educate those souls who are so excited about learning something new they are totally unaware of their rudeness, or lack of etiquette?" By saying nothing we reinforce the behavior that we don't want. My wife and I have been dancing for only 4 months now. I've read several items posted on the Internet about etiquette. We thank our lucky stars for folks such as yourself who speak out on these issues so that we can be more considerate of those who dance around us. I relate it to learning the game of golf. I was very fortunate to have someone show me the consideration I needed to have to not only enjoy my experience on the golf course but to make sure I didn't get in the way of others who wanted to enjoy their experience as well. The community that makes up dancers who share a variety of sizes and shapes of dance floors are better served when someone cares enough to communicate the thoughts and feelings of those who do care about the experience other's have. Let me propose this thought for you and your readers, "If you esteem those around you as better and treat them as if they were, your enjoyment will be the richer of the two."

Terry L. Alverson
"Pride only breeds violence but wisdom is found in those who take advice."

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From: Arnold Hansen arnoldhansen@earthlink.net

I must respectfully disagree with Hillary Alexander. The main difference between Savoy and Hollywood styles is not arm tension. Rather, it is the undeniable fact that many Hollywooders hold their noses much higher in the air. How ironic that here in Los Angeles, probably the most cosmopolitan city in the world, that our swing scene should be polluted with such provincial behavior!
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From: Hilary_Alexander@paramount.com

To Arnold Hansen -

Are you going to back up your comments about Hollywood Stylers dancing with their "noses in the air" and exhibiting "provincial behavior", or is this going to be yet another hit and run e-mail? I am continually amazed that people feel the need to air their private frustrations on public e-mail forums - rather than addressing specific incidents with the people involved, they insist on badmouthing a certain style/event/person on the internet for all to see and not question. This is not constructive and only makes you look bad. Next time you have a beef with someone please deal with it privately.

Hilary
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From: Thea Samuels swiget@yahoo.com

[Re: Arnold Hansen]

Hello. I read your response to Hilary's post on Margie's list - how terribly rude you are. Shame on you. Do you even know the people of which you speak? You sound more like a high school brat than a fun-loving dancer. There may or may not be differences between "smooth style" and "savoy"; however, the counts are still the same and people enjoy the movement just the same. Dancers typically love all forms of dance, and may perfer one dance over another. That's personal... some people perfer apple pie, others like cherry.

Regardless, what you said was very childish and insulting. Aren't you beyond the issue of "smooth" vs "savoy"? All the people I know who do "Hollywood" style could care less about that issue, they just enjoy dancing. They do what they love and enjoy watching others, I'd recommend you do the same. Try broadening your horizons. It should make you a better dancer... having a great attitide helps too.

Hoping to enjoy a huge helping of Bal pie soon, Thea (purveyor of dances)
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From: "Iris Willow" iris@rt66.com

I have just read it [The Savoy/Hollywood Debate] and can suggest an interesting exercise for those who get too hung up on a particular style.

Although Lindy Hop to swing music is our preferred dance (we initially learned Savoy ... at Catalina [from] PBDA but have also taken Hollywood workshops and enjoyed dancing at Memories with the Hollywood kids when we were last in LA), we live in Albuquerque, home of the country-western bar. If you're lucky, a couple of nights a week (currently Tuesday and Saturday) you can find some sort of swing music in this town to dance to. But on any other day? Recently, rather than sit at home and bitch about the lame local scene, we headed off to Midnight Rodeo and Lindyed with the two-steppers! If you are willing to try a similar exercise, you will find that a Balboa can progress just like a CW two-step (step-step-hold-step step-step-hold-step can go in one direction as well as back and forth!) You will also find that, with some thoughtful lead and follow, a Lindy Circle can be made to progress, as can many other Lindy steps. We also adapted a couple of progressive night-club two step moves - after all, they are eight count! - into our Lindy repertoire. Throw in a little Hollywood to keep the CW west-coasters off balance, and voila - fun in Albuquerque! And guaranteed to make you laugh, or at least smile, or perhaps cry.

Yes, the music sucks big time! But, we find that the adaptations required to dance at the cowboy bars really add to our dance flexibilty. We certainly can't just put it on autopilot! Nothing even remotely authentic here, but what the hay - it's only dancing! Now if only the local Lindy scene weren't so lame......

Doug in Albuquerque
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From: "Nikolas.Lloyd" <Nikolas.Lloyd@newcastle.ac.uk>

I've just read through the discussion on your site about etiquette, and thought I'd contribute.

It strikes me that Lindy hop is part of the jazz movement, and that the essence of jazz includes improvisation, experimentation, and individual style. Lindy hop became such a great dance because so many people improvised, experimented, and did things their way. Therefore the notion that there is one correct way of dancing Lindy (or ones of its subdivisions) works against part of the essence of the dance.

Part of this discussion has dealt with trying to define the subdivisions of the dance (Hollywood, Savoy, Dean Collins etc.). Surely this will prove impossible precisely because it is an improvised dance, developed by many individuals. One can make vague generalisations about the styles (Hollywood is more upright etc.) perhaps, but any dancer can throw all manner of styling into a dance. Indeed, part of the fun is dancing in a different manner, depending on music, partner, and whim. Before I did Lindy, I did modern jive, and before that, Ska was my dance. I also do salsa and latin styles. My favourite partners are those who like it when I suddenly put in a few salsa steps, before the next swing out, and who go with the lead, rather than fight it. I still dance in a slightly ska manner, and, come to think of it, in a slightly kung-fu manner. I hope that I do my little bit in developing the dance.

The incident which started the discussion (girl walking off the floor) prompts two points from me: 1. true, she didn't adjust to him, but how much reason did he give her to believe that he was going to adjust to her? 2. sometimes when I am dancing with a beginner, who expresses fear that she will not be able to follow everything I lead, I say "The only sin is to stop dancing." I say this in a manner designed to reassure her that nothing matters but fun. The girl in your anecdote broke this rule. I went to Herrang last year, determined to have a great time, and I failed. I was made to feel like a terrible dancer. Those who did the most damage to my enjoyment were American girls who seemed to put great value on never smiling, and who would either tell me that I was doing something wrong, or who would complain to me about other guys in a manner which made me feel inadequate. "It's embarrassing," they would say, "he can't even do a Lindy turn." I felt judged and found wanting.

The teachers didn't help. Every teacher taught a different version of the Lindy turn, and most talked as though theirs was the only correct one. I saw people wearing T-shirts which read "Real men let go on five". I felt like having one made saying "Real men let go when it suits the music" or "Real men let go when it is fun to do so", or "I let go some time between 1 and 8, usually".

One evening, a few teachers (all American, I'm afraid) started making fun of modern jive, where they could be seen outside the cafeteria. They were very loud and clearly thought themselves hilarious. They did jive moves deliberately very badly, and with no footwork and shouted, "Hey! Look at the footwork!" They seemed oblivious to the frosty reception they were getting from many of the diners. Within eye and ear-shot of them were several champion jive dancers, who were not impressed to see this display. Any dance done badly looks bad. At an international dance camp, it is very likely that many people there have done, or still do, other styles of dance. Savoy dancers shouldn't claim that Dean Collins style is worthlessly bad, nor should swing dancers make similar claims about other styles. Those teachers won no friends by their tom-foolery.

How big a fish I am depends on the size of my pond. When I Lindy where I live, I am a killer whale. Elsewhere in Britain I might be a barracuda. At Herrang I am a sprat, but the shoal should be a welcoming one. I'd like to be a happy sprat.

Lloyd

P.S. On my web-site is a page dealing with dance etiquette, although it does not address the issue of different styles. URL is:

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/dance/tencomm.html
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